hey everybody welcome back to the channel patrickt and li csw and i'm very excited to introduce this video i got together to have a chat with my mentor amanda curtin MSW she came up with her rrp model for childhood trauma therapy which is the same model that i work from in my practice and both in my videos so you're probably very familiar with her and you can also check out a prior interview that i did when i started my channel with amanda i'll have the link in the description of this video and today we got together to talk about men in therapy what are some better ways to engage when in for men in therapy and what are some barriers that keep them from coming into therapy so i hope you like it and also i'm conducting a webinar on shame coming up in about a week of the release of this video the webinar is going to be october 30th 2021 to saturday at 1 pm eastern standard time and in that webinar i talk about how shame manifests from childhood trauma how shame also becomes a strategy for abused kids or survival strategy and i also provide a worksheet about how to get out of shame triggers either at baseline or when it's like a shame attack and i go over that towards the end of the webinar and include in that webinar is also a live q a which is a good way to connect with me and it's a good way to get a sense about community about who who is out there who's working on this stuff so i hope that you can join me again it's going to be october 30th which is saturday at 1 pm eastern standard time and i will have a link somewhere up here i think a little bubble that takes you right to the registration so without further ado here's my chat with amanda
you know i just kind of want to ask ask you like where you know you know you you taught me your group model and i was in a group with you and i we had we had four men four women some straight some gay you know but there was these four amazing men in that group and that was my first experience both with therapy in a group and i was kind of blind to how difficult it is to sort of engage with men about doing trauma work because when i form when i'm forming a group now is you know it's there's so many more women who are interested in the work and i'm lucky i'm lucky if i have two to three men in a group you know and they they tend to be sort of harder to engage i would just love to kind of get your get your thoughts on that and like you know like kind of like for us to kind of talk about that yeah i mean i was when i started out i was told by all sorts of people that you're not going to get very many men especially if you do a group um and it just has not been the case for me i mean the group you did with me was really when i was starting out and i had four men in it and i just think that um there's kind of a bias that men don't want to do this uh and i'm i'm finding the opposite there are times when i've had more men on my waiting list than women which is so interesting that is yeah that blows my yeah
that blows my mind because um you youtube tells me these analytics about who was watching my videos what is their age their gender their location and it is around 82 percent women who are drawn to those videos about your model and stuff like that that's an amazing wow yeah and they are usually between the ages of say like 18 to 45 50.
and that totally 18 are sort of men yep so interesting and i'm trying to think how did i get men you know and how have i gotten men i'm trying to think about that because it's been really important to me to have a balance in the group of men and women um and so i think part of it is that people can't come to me because of word of mouth so i've never really advertised and so maybe women would talk to men that they knew might be interested and um and get them to come and see me uh oftentimes partners you know a woman would go through my group and then want her partner to go through it and it's not that people weren't that men weren't resistant but i think there's a way to talk about it to talk about this model that can intellectually make sense to a man and i think that's what i'm really good at is being able to to present the model in a way that that rings true they can say oh that makes sense what the model you're describing the tools you're describing makes sense to me so i might be willing to do it yeah i also think it will in my case i think it could also be your general vibe of just you know you you have a very loving safe presence so i think you know what i mean like it's just sort of like you have like for i imagine four men who might have a hard time bringing this stuff up or talking about it or even just checking it out you know you need to so go see amanda that once they get there i think that um i think you make it safe for them and as well as being able to explain the model but yes that helps too i can remember a woman coming i had a woman go through one of my groups and she was she loved it and she said i wish my partner would do there is no way in hell he will even come see you but he'll never do a group and i said well you know ask him to come and see me just to find out what you're doing so he can be more understanding of it and supportive of it so he came in and i started talking about the model and i looked over at him at one point and a tear was coming down and he said i need to do this and he and joining a group super enthusiastic about it uh got so much out of it and she was thrilled wow wow and like wow you know and through our discussion like i want you know especially in our era right now of all this change going on is i want to be careful about how i talk about men because right now there's such there's such and even as a man there's such a putting the basket of well toxic masculinity that's at the end of the story it's never going to get better but at the same time too is that the men that i have had in my groups are not only are they amazing but they have been abused by that toxic masculinity in some form and some variation of it themselves whether it's super loud or quiet and by quiet i mean like the unprotective dad or like the the really horrific abuser kind of dad so i just want to you know for myself just checking myself i don't want to get into this detrimental language about sort of men is i think i think women are set up you know and also to include you know like lgbtq plus sort of like that kind of i don't want to be just you know but we're usually sort of talking about usually cisgender sort of men and women i think women are or you know um little girls are set up to be traumatized in a certain way by the system and then you know so our boys so so it's cool i just want to make make sure that i'm checking my own bias and also not have language that's detrimental to men because it's not going to be helpful i totally agree with you and you know there's just so many um differences that that that i've been exposed to around men and women coming to see me you know i've had i've had uh men who have really wanted their their uh wives to come in and do it and their wives are super resistant so uh it's right you know it's wonderful just making internationalities and i think we're making generalities about the kind of society we live in and and sort of what the norm is and how women are often encouraged to be more uh affiliative um more connecting um oftentimes uh you know we're the caretakers you know we bring up children um and i think men are are often taught to be pretty independent um you know don't be a [ __ ] uh feelings feelings are and i don't need them um and so i i think that that's what what's what's going on but not but you know nobody fits into that completely yeah or worse like well feelings are for women women do it yes you know like that's kind of the way that i kind of grew up and i was thinking before our call i was thinking about you know um where i grew up and around the men you know it wasn't just sort of you know you know my having my father as a male role model and that's a whole that's a whole like you know like really messy you know can of worms um but you know the teachers the boy scout leaders the drum teacher like i would be in in the community about how men would talk to boys and i would say like let's just say a dog died and you know or something happened you know like i you know really sliced my foot open on a at a camping trip or something like that you know the way that adult men would take care of adult boys would be from distance and they would do that by saying you're all right right you're all right it's almost like they needed you know i found it like an interesting exchange that i found it's like the the adult men did not know how to be vulnerable and they wanted the boy or whatever that could happen to daughters too about to just sign off just to say yes i don't need any emotional support you don't need any emotional support right i don't need any emotional support and it makes me think about i think that that stuff is trickier to name than say like the major abusive sexually abusive dad or something like that don't be a [ __ ] you know don't cry all that stuff it's a little bit more covert or something you know it's it reminds me of a of a guy i worked with who had the experience as a young boy pretty young you know i think he was maybe five or six and he cut his foot and his father was a doctor and in front of the whole family he gave him stitches without any anesthesia and and and he wasn't supposed to cry and that really stayed with him so you know it's heartbreaking um but you know what's interesting to me too is that i don't think women also learn enough about feeling i don't think most of our families really knew how to deal with feelings and how to model healthy feelings and um i think all of us suffer because of that and i think that's when people tell me they had a great childhood the first thing i'll ask them is how are emotions handled in your family if you were really angry or scared or hurt how would you deal with it and that's when people start to talk about how it wasn't so safe and they didn't really have an emotional connection with their parents or felt like they were so faced they could run to right you know such a good conversation and that's so true it also makes me think about like you know um we can deny a child's reality by not talking about emotions you know what i mean like sort of like how do you talk to a kid when there was a fight between mom and dad and it was really nasty or the dog died or you know what i mean like an older sibling got sick
and to not talk about it is to almost it's like no we i know we overly use this words but you know like it's almost like to gaslight a child by not you know because children are so they're emotional they're you know what i mean they're in a good way they're they're so open they're not they're not so conditioned yet it's like as kids we were like are we gonna talk about that the dog died or that you know dad has cancer or you know we're just kind of waiting yeah it has to come from the adults and most of our parents weren't given that either so they didn't know how to deal with it and they affected us and what we're trying to do now is to change that and to really have a generation that begins to get more comfortable with feelings right and i i from what i see i think that that's already happening yes because with with the wealth of knowledge that's available on the internet like there's people watching this video it's like when you and i were coming up or were you and i were seeking our own healing we couldn't just jump on youtube and kind of learn about you know like sort of how the emotion how you know how the family did or didn't deal with feelings or what's a little bit get a little bit of a clue about what may be normal and what not
and that's where i think uh we were lucky to have uh john bradshaw who would fill auditoriums with people and talk about dysfunctional families and everybody was relating people were crying people were like i need help around this and you know he opened up a whole world for so many people in this country absolutely right right absolutely and i want to come back to like what you said about um when i i when someone um when someone says i had a really terrific childhood it's like i i have to check myself but i tend to not really believe them um because of like that question like you really reference just like well how did the family talk about you know how did the family talk about feelings you know like was that was the family really sort of um sort of child-centered about what kids needs and what kids don't and what i also sort of see as a parent myself is i find that there's so much more awareness about what children need more than ever i think we still have a long way to go but um and but i don't mean to take when someone did have sort of a good enough childhood it's like you know like that's definitely that you know i don't want to take that away from somebody but i don't think you know yeah we're just looking at where the places are that might need healing yes but i love to celebrate when people had good experiences and and you know nothing is all good or bad usually right absolutely absolutely so well you know i think that you're you know like still learning from you is you know about how i'm always taking cues from you about sort of like how to be more open and kind of going for more of the hard stuff with somebody and what do you see when you have when you get a man who is potentially interested in your work and they're just checking it out like what do you see about like the resistance about like their their you know how do you see that maybe their trauma kind of plays out in that conversation with you like how do they present yeah i i mean it's this obviously a huge variety of of with the ways men show up uh but i think in general um i think they're wary about uh being vulnerable um maybe um not sure what they're supposed to do and what this therapy thing is all about and then when i mention group it's like no way i am not gonna i'm not gonna talk in front of a group of strangers um there's no way i can do that and you know i i understand it i totally understand it and i don't want them to feel like i don't i just asked them to just hear about the model a little bit and see if it rings true with them because i i want to know if it makes sense what i'm talking about and um and i want them to see that in a in a way the work is a bit like taking a course it's not just people coming in and talking about their life or unstructured or anything it's very structured they're very concrete tools and when i say tools men tend to go oh that's interesting what kind of tools do you have so um so that's helpful um and and i think the the bottom line is just to ask them what their life is like you know what what's working what's not working and when they start to talk about what's not working that's when i go back to a lot of what we've learned from brain research and all the wonderful we just have so much information now about trauma and about kind of the way the body and the mind work um i talk about in terms of you know growing up as a young kid you had a specific family and specific parents and you're like a sponge as a kid you just take in whatever it is they're modeling and whatever experiences you have and that includes what your belief systems are how you think about yourself how you think about other people your patterns of behavior all of that and it gets cemented in really strong and that's what runs you and most people that program runs them for their whole life and so if it's not um a particularly healthy program you're kind of stuck and and then i will say to them which is always what is probably most important for them to hear is that awareness doesn't change the program so you can be aware for example that you feel like you're not that smart and know that it was because your your father said you were stupid all the time and you can know that you know kids aren't stupid but it doesn't change it in fact sometimes it makes you feel worse because now you're watching yourself you know uh unable to change it and so what i tell them is that the tools that i've developed and the process i've developed is really about changing that program it's in the body it's in the feelings and it's not in the head right and they're kind of interested by that sometimes yeah if they're not it's not they're time to do it yeah sorry oh that's okay that makes so much sense to me and i where i have a lot of clients when i explain your model a lot of women love that there is a concrete timeline and tools and activities that is sort of done there um and thinking about it i think that most people men and women or anybody i think when we talk to them about a group most people are like no no no thanks you know what i mean it's it's rare that i've never had someone say like sign me up i can't wait you know like be in a room full of other trauma survivors just talking like where i think um i i wonder if people feel well i don't wonder i know i think that people feel like they're going to be trapped in some endless really awkward thing in a group of people and either have to take care of them or you know what i mean like have to you know they'll get changed do something they're not really that into yeah or i think the other thing is they'll get shamed and i think that's even a deeper one for most people that that's the public humiliation is the worst thing and somehow a lot of people don't feel that they're lovable really inside and so the thought of having a room full of people see that you're unlovable no way right right and for a man to be suggested to join a group you know are they going to be humiliated are they going to have to take care of everybody maybe like they did or you know what i mean or be like the strong pillar of selflessness or all of that stuff about what you know there's a really good reason behind the no yeah there's a you know there's a really good reason behind i'm not really interested in that yeah you know yeah and or they know it's going to be about feelings i mean you know in relationship so that's also i mean i think most people it's rare i get a few people who are enthusiastic about group but very few including women it's like i want to do individual i'll do individual but i don't want to group and uh you know that's where i think i don't know why but i i have a really good track record of convincing people to do group uh and i don't know if it's because i so believe in it that they sort of pick up on that um but also i do i do too because i had such an amazing experience in it i tell people that um your group brought me up to sea level with the rest of the world instead of just treading water you know what i mean and barely having a life jacket on and it just was that was really true for me so like i can sell it from a place of you know i'm not only i'm not only the rogaine president but you know what i mean i'm also a client like i can sort of talk to them about it you know another piece is that you you taught me years ago that um our first group is our family and that when we're when we suggest group specifically to you know just say a man or say a woman is i think that that that initial like no thanks is i don't want to have to be the provider for everybody i don't want to have to be the adult in the room i don't want to be shamed or humiliated or you don't mean be trapped in something that i don't want a part of kind of stuff and it never plays out like that and they need they need a process to see over time that it's actually a pretty like engaging and mind-blowing experience that it's pretty equalizing you know to be sitting next to another man who you know who had the same kind of mom or the same kind of unprotective dad or the same power struggles in their marriage it's huge that's that's a big part of it i think is just being able to be with other men sitting with a therapist there's a difference between like regular people and therapists so to have regular men in the room is huge and and you're right there's so much relating that goes on but also i think that we often learn through watching other people and it really helps to watch another person do the work it just um like the one two three that you know that that i developed around how conflict resolution i can teach it to a couple in the office and it's so confusing to them because they're all stirred up and they're not really watching the process but if they watch another couple in a group do the one two three it becomes so clear what the tool is and how it works and so i i stress that watching other people is where you're we can see other people's stuff much more than our own and you just learn so much in a group that you couldn't learn just to have a therapist right that's actually the benefit of any group psychotherapy is just watching do you know what i mean most of us just we get horrific modeling we you know like you know when i left my family system i was just guessing how to be in the world you know what i mean but when i would watch healthier people handle situations or whatever so i i learned so much from healthier people in group about how to be a mature adult or you know like all kinds of stuff but that's one of the major sort of factors and it's hard it's hard to kind of sell a person on that or try to convince them that that's what they get out of it but it just kind of happens on its own when they're in it and i think it's really for me i i want them to i want them to to come to it on their own i i want them i want it to make sense and i want them to feel like it's worth giving it a shot and what i tell them also is that i don't ask for a commitment to group i've never wanted people to be committed to group because it replicates the family where you can't leave so if it doesn't feel right if it doesn't work out they can leave and i think that helps too yeah yeah right to not to not feel trapped yeah or have or codependently having to show up for other people that level of trap or something else it just doesn't work for them well what um what do you what do you find um comes up what do you maybe men who are kind of on the fence about maybe joining what what kind of things do you hear them sort of say what kind of stuff comes up in that conversation yeah i think i think mostly just um some sometimes they feel pressured to be to be seeing me you know like who's this amanda you know um i didn't want to come see you you know but i'm doing it for her and uh and so i i think um and then there's this just a sense of of um things are okay you know i have an okay life um and uh i don't really wanna you know my my family was okay you know it wasn't that bad and i i'm grateful to my family for a lot of what they did for me and uh i don't want to mess that up um and i i don't even see the point like why why go back there and i'm trying to do the best i can in the present right right and yeah like that was you know it would be cool it would be cool if we did a role play where i i play a potential client
just sort of thinking about that is why why is because i think you have a gift with being like i said before about border sort of being safe but to also and i think i i think i'm i look to you to about this about really keeping it to sort of simple language you know and not kind of clinical kind of mumbo jumbo you know you have a gift about really getting through to people that i try to emulate um and because it's also a learning tool for me about in a way where i'm still learning if if someone is resistant up front i tend to sort of say okay well maybe at another time yeah you know what i mean maybe this isn't for you it's sort of like you know maybe you know i i i respond better who to people who are like i know that this is going to suck but i do want to do it with you i mean like that's a different vibe that someone comes in with it is so it's part of my maturing is to sort of learn about how to how to work how to work with somebody who's got that going on i tend to be sometimes triggered by the resistance sure i mean that makes sense of course and i think that what i tried to figure out was how to connect in a way that brings it alive for somebody whether it's a man or a woman but let's say we're talking about men and and one way especially because you know it's often relationship oriented you know there's some kind of relationship issue going on and so i to talk about uh triggering and that's the whole red flags of triggering is something that brings men alive because they can really relate so i'll say you know in the present with your wife have or your partner have you ever uh felt like you know you're having a bump and you fee in the present you're upset and your reaction is so big it just feels huge um and they'll go yeah yeah and then or um what about uh you you just completely shut down you either shut down emotionally or you leave the room and they can relate to that and yes and then i'll say or do you ever have that a feeling of righteousness like this is so wrong what she's doing and i'm so right you know and i'll say you know that's that's another thing that that is a sign of triggering and and then the other one um language like when you when you're um like all or nothing thinking you always do this i never do this or you have like language is kind of like a metaphor or image like i feel like you're stabbing me in the heart or you're abandoning me right um but the most important one for me is when you don't like the person who's triggered you so when richard my husband triggers me and i'm really massively triggered i'm like why am i with this guy i don't really like him and then when i come out of my trigger it's like there's richard i love richard so um so they can relate to that i think anybody can relate to that and so then i talk about what is triggering triggering is when someone in the present does something and you have a reaction to them but it links up with the well of pain from the past that's similar so let's say i think i think richard's being unfair then obviously there's something in the press i'm going to react but it then it connects me and i don't even know it with all the times that i felt things were unfair as a kid and all that emotion i want to put on him and it doesn't belong to him so people begin to say okay that makes sense to me and i wanna i'd like to be able to learn how to have conflict with my partner and feel closer
cool well let's let's do it i'm a potential candidate and let's just call it like my you're seeing my wife katie okay and katie's in a group with you and katie is really suggesting to me that i come see you okay what's your name uh michael michael okay michael yeah so hi michael it's really really great to meet you hey katie katie's told me a lot about a lot about you she really she really likes the the stuff you guys do yeah yeah who is this amanda person you know you must be wondering about like whoa what's happening here she'd do it to my partner sometimes she doesn't shut up about it to be honest you know i totally get that and sorry but no i'm so glad you came and i i think you know it takes a lot of courage to show up and um and also maybe a commitment to her that you're willing to kind of check out what's who i am um i'm i'm really i'm really pleased you're here but i also know it's not hard it's not easy to do that right you know well i you know you might hear a lot about me but i really love her and she does really want me to be a better person so i'm just sort of you know i just don't i i don't you know she and i are so different we had like really different sort of families but i don't i don't think she i don't think i have what she had yeah it's probably true yeah that's probably true um and you know what often happens and again i don't want you to believe anything i'm saying it has to you have to test it out at some point and see if it actually is true but i'll tell you what i've learned in all the years i've been doing this is that couples come together with very different histories usually but there's a way that they connect that can kind of re-traumatize each one so for example um yeah but i don't i don't think i think that that's what i mean like i don't think i had trauma i think katie had trauma with her mom and dad but i you know i we had normal dinners and you know we were we were put through school and you know what i mean it's just it was just i just want you to understand that it's different yeah and i hear you and i'm and you know i use that word trauma a lot and i want to talk about what i mean by trauma because most people think it's like okay you've been beaten sexually abused there's you know just horrific stuff going on in the family and is that right does that mean no i just i didn't exactly i didn't have that stuff going on yeah and so there's a different kind of trauma and i'll and i you know you don't even have to like the word but you know there's a different kind of trauma that i often help people discover and and you know i'd like to if it's okay ask a little bit about your family just to get a flavor of it yeah yeah so so i'm wondering like how were how are feelings dealt with in your family like if you were really upset what would you do
uh what do you mean by upset let's say uh you know you didn't do well on a test or like uh you broke up with your girlfriend or your girlfriend broke up with you or um you know somebody was mean to you or you know there was stuff going on with your brother you didn't like
well well i you know my sister was different but i would keep those things to myself yeah yeah that's because yeah like it would just be with my mom it would be super embarrassing and like you know with my dad it's he you know he uh he wasn't you know i just i didn't have that relationship with him he was sort of he was he was the provider he traveled he did what he what he needed to do for us so it's just sort of i just kind of me i just managed that stuff on my own yeah and and that's not uncommon i want you to know that's really what most kids do uh and it's partly because i think most most of us don't know how to deal with feelings and yet they're such an important part of being human and our parents didn't know how their parents didn't know how and so in some ways there's no blame they just don't know how and and so so there is a sense that go ahead well no i'm sorry to cut you off but my mom like let's let's say if i had a breakup or i got a c on something is and i'm sure katie will will tell you she hates my she hates my mom but i i kind of half get it like but my mom would um she would just talk at me incessantly about it you know anime would just sort of like that's where so that i'm just explaining her her her heart was in the right place but my mom would would so it's almost like she would sort of just talk you to death about the girlfriend and it was almost like it would be upsetting to my mom that i had a problem with a girlfriend or she would just kind of take it over and you know so that's why i just didn't really want to bother her with it so that she wouldn't get like that you know what i mean well you know you you're really smart to figure it out that it was that you needed to handle that on your own and it gives you a certain kind of confidence a certain kind of independence but what we're learning more and more is that um you know we're talking about a relationship with your wife let's say that the key part is emotion is connecting emotionally and so if you haven't learned about your emotions and you don't know how to connect it's a kind of a setup for upset and for feeling like um disconnected and so one of the things that that was um you know and again luckily there's been a lot of research about this i'm not just telling you this is my theory but you know we're we look at sort of what's really important for kids to come out of childhood with in order to have a good chance of having a good life and you know what the number one thing is what having a the experience of being emotionally connected to a parent it's not having a roof over your head it's not having food on the table it's you know all that stuff that we think of which is really important obviously but it's about having the sense that you have a parent you can go to when you're upset who will help you understand your feelings and who will also model having feelings themselves and be a safe base so that you feel unconditionally loved and completely able to be real and honest with them
i i know what you mean and i think that's that's you know katie and i talk about kids and that's how probably we would want to do it but i think there's a part of me that sort of says isn't that a little bit too and i'm sorry i'm from my word foofy isn't that a little bit too much or yeah it doesn't really work like that you know i i don't i think you're right in terms of the world yes i think that you know you've gotten that message probably as a boy and as a man and i i can't deny it but yeah what i try to do in this work is kind of re-look at stuff and see does that really serve me does that really is that really going to help for example i love that you want to be different with your kids it's amazing that's such a beautiful thing about you the problem is if you don't know how to do it how are you going to help them
and again no fault here no blame because kids only learn about emotions if they get help around it and um and again your parents didn't know how to do it because they probably didn't get that from their parents but we're trying to now figure out how do we correct this and help people learn how to deal with emotions if it's if that's the most important thing you come out of childhood with um i want to be able to help people learn how to do that yeah i think that a couple things i think that that's what katie her major problem with me is is that i don't tell her about things do what i mean like she'll she'll talk about what being like triggered by a boss or whatever and i just don't think to talk about like that but i wonder um i know that katie loves group but could you maybe just do like maybe sessions with me about becoming a dad i love that request because you know i just can tell you're the kind of person who wants to be a good dad you know that's that's amazing and um my own experience and and you know again i'm i i want it to make sense to you i don't work i don't do this work individually anymore and the reason i don't is because it it's you can learn so much more in a group and the the the um the ability to both be able to be in relationship with other members of the group and have a safe place to practice and and be a beginner because what i tell everybody is be a beginner in this group you don't have to know anything and you can and i'm gonna give you a very small step process of how to learn about your feelings and then learn about how to share that with other people we go really slowly and i couldn't do that just with you and me because there aren't enough um you need me as a resource to learn how to deal with other people in a group and so that it just works so much better i know i know i totally get that reaction but but again like you know i hear you but if i'm if i'm in a group with people that have been assaulted by sexually assaulted by a dad and then alcoholic mom and you know like it's like sort of like you know like katie um like we just have such a different stories i don't i'm not gonna belong in that group well i you're right and i don't even i wouldn't i would i would feel like an imposter you know yeah and and i wouldn't do that to you honestly um one of the things the reason i said that my or may not have said this but my view of trauma is much broader than most which is not good enough parenting and especially not good enough parenting around emotions and so i have a lot of people who come to me like you who have the kind of background you do and so there's always a balance of those kind of families and what's interesting to me is over time what happens is people realize that the the ones who came from horrific stories and the ones who came from stories like yours have a lot in common in that emotions didn't know that in both in both kinds nobody knew how to deal with emotions in a healthy way so there is a kind of commonality over time that develops but you you're right it wouldn't be good for you to be in a group where everybody had horrific uh trauma i'm just lucky because i get a lot of people like you so um so that uh so that you're not alone well what well i don't you know given what i said like what would qualify as my trauma and like i guess another question i have is i i don't wanna
i have a co-worker that says he goes to a uh he goes to like a 12-step you know aaa kind of a thing you know like it just seems like these people just sit in a room and talk about how bad things were you know and i don't you know like i don't i i need some i you know like is this you have structure is there a timeline is there like uh homework that you know i guess i'm asking a lot but two two questions no they're great they're really great questions i really appreciate them and it tells me you're really considering you know really trying to listen to what your questions are and to make sure that you that you tell me what they are um yeah it's a very structured program it's it's almost like a course uh there's a beginning middle end and we never just come in and talk about what's going on in your life and the reason is because you need tools and you need a process to start to work on some of this stuff that allows you to make progress and to really learn something so it's very structured and i off there's often homework um and uh and there's always an agenda for the group got it well that's yeah okay but what you know coming back to that like what would you know i know you don't you don't know me we've only been talking for 20 minutes but what would be my my trauma you know like that's a part that i i don't i really don't get that part when katie talks about her family compared to mine i get that i get that my mom is is is a lot to deal with but i don't yeah well that's why you know most of us have a story about our childhoods that sometimes came from the family sometimes we just develop it on our own this is what my family was like and we often don't re-look at it and so what i do is i want you to just re-look at it and so i'll ask you a lot of questions about your childhood and and have you begin to um see whether or not what i'm saying about emotions you know is really something that happened to you and that it affected you in a way that that uh maybe set you up for some of the issues you have with katie
okay you know the only thing that i would think that was really hard was my older brother was really an abuse was a bully and he's now a drug addict and i don't we don't talk to him and like you know in a way like it's just like if you know if anyone asks me like you know do you have any dysfunctional family stuff i tell them i don't really have a dysfunctional family i have a dysfunctional brother yeah yeah so yeah and that's that's being off the top of my head that's the only thing i can imagine myself talking about with people in this group that's a really good example so when you think about it you know the story is i have a bad i have a brother who's a problem right so what i would say is let's let's look at it a different way which is i always feel like uh kids are kids you know and that they do the best they can and it's really up to the parents to deal with whatever it is that's happening with kids number one what's happening with your brother you know it sounds like he needed some help and number two what was happening with you where you had a brother that was really difficult and so you had to deal with that on your own i bet given what you're telling me yeah yeah and so what i'm proposing is that if you could have gone to your parents and been honest with them and maybe had some feelings about it you know cried or we were angry that that your brother was maybe tormenting you and they were a resource to you not only to comfort you but to say yeah of course you feel that way that's really awful and and then say what are we going to do about it let's let's figure out how to help you it probably would have been much better for you that makes a lot of sense and i wouldn't do that because my mom would just take it over right right yeah so that's interesting that's what that's what katie says a lot to me a lot of the time like you know like i'm a little bit thick you know i don't think you know she's trying to tell me about my brother and um you know i just think that you know it's you know that would be that would be interesting because you know like i just took what dad said and it was just sort of like dad was just disgusted with him and yeah and imagine you know if we if we it's so helpful to think about having your own kids like what would you do with your son if yeah that's what i think that that's the stuff that keeps me up at night yeah yeah right because i don't i don't i know i wouldn't want i know i wouldn't want stuff like that to come up but i don't exactly know how to not make that happen right or how to what if stuff did come up you know like i don't i don't i don't want my i don't want to if i had a son i wouldn't want to parent him like my dad parented me yeah or you know parenting yeah right right yeah and that's that's a beautiful part of you and yet if you don't get help how are you going to do anything different and again no blame there it's just that you know you'll do the best you can but if you don't have any tools or any way to learn about emotions and learn about how to connect emotionally with your son it's probably not going to happen and that's what this group is is about is to help you be able to get what you didn't get from your parents uh because we can always get it at any point in our life and to do it in a place that's safe now the great thing about my groups is you wouldn't sign up for this group if you didn't really want to change and grow so i get great people and so it's not just people talking to therapy it's people who really sign up to look at their childhoods which is a lot of people don't want to do and actually learn about feelings which a lot of people don't want to do so it's it's um it's um it's a yeah i feel so grateful for the people i get people like you who who come to me and genuinely say i want to be a different kind of dad right well i know that this is super specific and it's probably just just me being anxious about it but you know um because of my brother would there be anybody in the group like my brother or you know like is it you know like it's a great it's again a great question you asked really great questions and um i don't think somebody like your brother would sign up for this group but
but but if i if i screened them i could probably pick up on it and i wouldn't invite them to join okay okay well this has been so helpful you know like can i can i connect with you next week about it i'm pretty good about that you know what i mean like it's just i just want to talk about it with katie and kind of go over it and like you know and and you know i really i really want you to know that um there's no pressure for you to to join i just wanted you to understand it so you could make a decision that that felt right to you and if you have other questions or you want to you know talk some more uh call me i'd be happy to to talk to you some more will do and thank you so much you spent a lot of time with me you know so i really really appreciate that so um you know i'll even get back to you probably by monday okay whenever you know there's no hurry but uh i i just want you to really be able to sit with it as long as you need to i'm really glad you could talk to katie and it was it was great to meet you really good meeting you too really appreciated this thank you so much okay bye okay and scene [Laughter] that was so helpful you know did you not think we were going to go that long no no no it was fine i just i hope i was okay i mean i really don't know if i was over amazing yeah someone jumped on not knowing what you know like it would not if someone jumped in the midway the video they'd be like oh it's what's this you know like they're just in a conversation that's like you know this michael guy sounds nice [Laughter] feel free to edit it because as i say i just i have no idea how i did but you were great you're you i don't even think i need we don't that was you you are the queen at role plays you were amazing at that and you know like i learned i learned from the best so
it doesn't seem right i'm happy to do it again so let me know yeah i don't even think i don't even think i have to edit anything in that that was so good um and what i really liked about it you know um there was something in there that you did that you know when if a client were to come to me like that and they mentioned that my mom would take things over why i inserted that was just kind of like when someone i think that clients some of them will will come to me really knowing that their childhood was horrific and they don't they don't need any convincing they know you know and then sometimes there might be someone like eh you know like my dad was m.i.a and my mom would take things over yes and what i found interesting what you you didn't do is you didn't sort of um go into that with him and try to educate him on what kind of mom was like that and i think that that might have been a different in our styles but maybe a good move in a way that you maybe didn't want to freak him out yeah and start talking about a diagnosis or abusive behavior or something like that because in a way this guy michael knew what his mom is like yes he did he did and he started to really bring it out so much more than he did in the beginning so yeah yeah it was you were great you were really great because it's just it's so real i mean that's what that's that was a real situation and you know the other situation is somebody who's had horrific trauma and is t is terrified of vulnerability no way am i going to go into group groups really hurt you yeah yeah absolutely absolutely right and then to try to like get them to take a risk when they don't when you can't guarantee that safety you only mean like that's like where they're so preoccupied with that so yeah you know so i think that that was you were you were really great in the way that you know um that you kept you know really giving me some positive loving feedback about wanting to be a better dad and i think that that is sort of i think men i think men like this guy michael kind of know but you know a lot of us including myself just kind of parrot the family narrative that you know like they did their best or or you know like dad was bad to mom mom is great or vice versa mama you know they just kind of come in and sort of go with that sort of story so what i what i like is you were able to really just kind of gently kind of like you know um check things out with them about what they want good i hope how do they want to be different like people may say i had a good family but then it's almost like well what would you maybe want to do differently yeah that's another question and how you raised what you did though that was beautiful yeah yeah i mean i i always feel a little bumbly but maybe that's good
right i think it's better than i think you know what what i hear from clients is um it's funny we come from these family systems where nobody is real but i think when the therapist is not themselves or a little bit authentic inauthentic i don't think that people like i really think that people get turned off yeah that could be if if we are not our best you know like if we're not our real her children picks up on that and like i don't you know if we were kind of um i don't know schmaltzy or or two two whatever yeah what's that polished oh yeah they're completely together i just don't ever feel that way so it's like yeah right or they're like the academic authority or yep yeah you know so i think that that's what people are drawn to you because just from that sort of you're not you know sitting with a dsm in your lap and you know what i mean like it's just sort of like like let's take a bunch of assessments kind of stuff i don't i'm not trying to poo poo on that stuff but it's just different yeah yeah well this was a treat this was i love chatting with you as always yes and i i want to do more role plays with you i would love to do another video about um when someone's well a i'm going to be doing uh a video on people hating the term inner child yeah good and i pretty much i very much get that like that's a thing so it's sort of how how do i make that more of a useful tool rather than something because people people hear that word and it's like oh that's like super precious that's like way too you know and it's just sort of we could just rename it as the trauma brain but i think that term is about a person's inner child that that term in your child is about a person's relationship with their self that's right how they deal with their feelings and all that kind of stuff so i would love to do more role plays about when how the inner adult doesn't want the job and how the in the inner child either hates the adult or doesn't trust them and there's just such a big disconnect that that's where a lot of people need to start there that would be really really fun that would be really really fun i love that cool